This issue has been on my mind for a while. I'm not sure if its just me or if Honda in general suffer from bad grip. I totally understand and appreciate that good tyres can help but really how much can it do.
UK is notorious for its rain/wet and cold weather, I would say 80% of the year it would be this way. It really pisses me off when I see cars like Golfs, Seat Leon and BMWs etc (heavier cars) zooming past me and around corners where I wheel spin and cant gain grip and always backing off and losing power at the wheel especially when i accelerate in both gears 1 and 2 (normal driving its ok, im talking about the spirited driving its really important that i get this fixed as i got power but cant use it or have much fun due to this real problem)
Is it because the Civic 1.4 is light (engine weight), the Civics with b-blocks seem better but cant state that for sure as I haven't driven one daily.
Can suspension make a difference (I am stock) with 26mm front sway bar, 16" alloys (I guess my tyres are cheap as I got it with the alloys)
How can i get it so i can drive with greater confidence in our permanently set cold and wet weather? and stop that dreaded wheel spin i hate so much. I am a daily driver (but need this grip for spirited street driving) plus car is turbo'ed, even when i had two 1.4 civics NA they both had the same wheel spin and struggling to grip issue in rain (wheel spin and wheel hop) and even in the dry when going hard when accelerating in gears 1 and 2 sometimes in 3, plus having it preform well in the dry when we do get a brief summer without having to change tyres.
Wheel Spin
Wheel Spin
Liberate our minds by any means necessary - Malcom X
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saxophonias
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- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:03 am
Re: Wheel Spin
I think it has to do with the geometry. An lsd could really help you with that too.
Re: Wheel Spin
When you say geometry, am I stuck with this issue if an LSD is not upgraded?
I do believe my tyres are not the best but can tyres make a big difference, i know this may come across and sounds stupid and im sure it does help but can it help to eliminate wheel spin in the wet when down shifting and hitting the acceleration or at least lower the spin of the wheel to at least a turn or two of the wheel rather than wheel spinning for the whole length of gear 1 and 2.
I do believe my tyres are not the best but can tyres make a big difference, i know this may come across and sounds stupid and im sure it does help but can it help to eliminate wheel spin in the wet when down shifting and hitting the acceleration or at least lower the spin of the wheel to at least a turn or two of the wheel rather than wheel spinning for the whole length of gear 1 and 2.
Liberate our minds by any means necessary - Malcom X
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Dodo Bizar
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2009
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:36 pm
Re: Wheel Spin
Yes LSD can help a bit, but only in corners it really affects.
Yes lowering and hardening also helps. But think both are... 5 to 10% difference makers, not a world of difference.
What does make a world of difference is as you suggest yourself... tires. I've seen numbers... can't find ehm now, but have seen them. In wet they can make a factor 2 in braking distance almost between budget and brand tires. With tires what you pay is what you get. Most tires will do just fine in the dry, but on the rain there is the difference. It's due to grip in wet is a world of it's own. The balance between simple adhesion and deformation changes in the wet. Put it simple: adhesion disappears.
Instead of 5-10% grip diff it might turn out 50-100% grip diff when you put the right wheels.
And you could call me a bit narrowminded, but in the rain, I always go for Michelin, I very often hear it's the best in rain and they saved my ass several times you could say. The tire I know best is the Michelin Pilot Exalto. I really recommend you that one in the rain. Unfortunately it's the PE2 these days which I believe is a bit weaker in dry than the old PE1. But rain really makes me feel save with these. I currently got also Bridgestone Turanza on the 626, but they don't come close... especially high speed cornering wet I hate the Turanza. But don't be fooled, nowadays the PE2 scores pretty good in surveys, but only 3 or 4 out of 5 stars on wet braking. It's a lie, it's an error... it simply can;t be if you see how I steer these tires like a maniac around the track dry or wet. I even past semi-slick cars on the outside with PE2 several times (okay, probably those drivers sucked a bit, but still). Feeling like a prayer... go to your tire dealer (Euromaster over there?) and buy the Exalto... yes they will be the most expensive tire. But apart from grip they are also durable (a contradiction perhaps... but most surveys tell that... I just don't care, I smoke ehm up on the track or whatsoever). It will be money well spent, if not best.
Also on rain with PE1 and with PE2... I have braked so hard (one time traffic jam, other time traffic light going red) that the person behind me would have slammed in my car if I would have not released the brake. The second time (PE2 on wet, traffic light) I did not even consider myself to be braking hard, until the Ford KA behind me came closer to my rearview mirror with a drift angle of around 10 to 20 degrees... I released the brake... let the car roll out a bit longer, and still managed to stop in time for the traffic light with the KA unhurt.
Yes lowering and hardening also helps. But think both are... 5 to 10% difference makers, not a world of difference.
What does make a world of difference is as you suggest yourself... tires. I've seen numbers... can't find ehm now, but have seen them. In wet they can make a factor 2 in braking distance almost between budget and brand tires. With tires what you pay is what you get. Most tires will do just fine in the dry, but on the rain there is the difference. It's due to grip in wet is a world of it's own. The balance between simple adhesion and deformation changes in the wet. Put it simple: adhesion disappears.
Instead of 5-10% grip diff it might turn out 50-100% grip diff when you put the right wheels.
And you could call me a bit narrowminded, but in the rain, I always go for Michelin, I very often hear it's the best in rain and they saved my ass several times you could say. The tire I know best is the Michelin Pilot Exalto. I really recommend you that one in the rain. Unfortunately it's the PE2 these days which I believe is a bit weaker in dry than the old PE1. But rain really makes me feel save with these. I currently got also Bridgestone Turanza on the 626, but they don't come close... especially high speed cornering wet I hate the Turanza. But don't be fooled, nowadays the PE2 scores pretty good in surveys, but only 3 or 4 out of 5 stars on wet braking. It's a lie, it's an error... it simply can;t be if you see how I steer these tires like a maniac around the track dry or wet. I even past semi-slick cars on the outside with PE2 several times (okay, probably those drivers sucked a bit, but still). Feeling like a prayer... go to your tire dealer (Euromaster over there?) and buy the Exalto... yes they will be the most expensive tire. But apart from grip they are also durable (a contradiction perhaps... but most surveys tell that... I just don't care, I smoke ehm up on the track or whatsoever). It will be money well spent, if not best.
Also on rain with PE1 and with PE2... I have braked so hard (one time traffic jam, other time traffic light going red) that the person behind me would have slammed in my car if I would have not released the brake. The second time (PE2 on wet, traffic light) I did not even consider myself to be braking hard, until the Ford KA behind me came closer to my rearview mirror with a drift angle of around 10 to 20 degrees... I released the brake... let the car roll out a bit longer, and still managed to stop in time for the traffic light with the KA unhurt.
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saxophonias
- Posts: 2590
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:03 am
Re: Wheel Spin
Nice feedback Joris!
Just to mention as well, that the bigger the tyre the worse it is in the rain. Also a hard set up is going to be worse again in the rain. High tyre pressure will also give the bumpy start when it is wet. I am mentioning all these as general factors. You might need to consider more quality tyres as Joris says and maybe upgrade the suspension!
Just to mention as well, that the bigger the tyre the worse it is in the rain. Also a hard set up is going to be worse again in the rain. High tyre pressure will also give the bumpy start when it is wet. I am mentioning all these as general factors. You might need to consider more quality tyres as Joris says and maybe upgrade the suspension!
Re: Wheel Spin
Joris, you review tires like a boss ^_^ awesome feedback its exactly what I needed to hear and yes I hear many good things about Michelin, I think my suspension is lacking big time and my tires are cheap as poo lol no wonder I'm getting no power down and spinning like a homeless man on crack. Will look into your suggestion and others potential ones.
Have you got all 4 wheels exactly the same? My rear treads have loads left and was thinking of changing front first and rear a month or 2 later due to finances. I know this may cause over steer due to better front grip lol.
Saxo about your comment on stiffness is something I agree could impact grip but im bone stock (soft) some stiffness may do a lot of good. I was also planning to have it nose down and rear a tad high (no stupid looking high) but enough to give some front traction, could that help also?
Have you got all 4 wheels exactly the same? My rear treads have loads left and was thinking of changing front first and rear a month or 2 later due to finances. I know this may cause over steer due to better front grip lol.
Saxo about your comment on stiffness is something I agree could impact grip but im bone stock (soft) some stiffness may do a lot of good. I was also planning to have it nose down and rear a tad high (no stupid looking high) but enough to give some front traction, could that help also?
Liberate our minds by any means necessary - Malcom X
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saxophonias
- Posts: 2590
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:03 am
Re: Wheel Spin
Yeap I agree, stock is way too soft, so upgrading to a stiffer coilover will only benefit you. When the time comes we will discuss about choosing spring rates according to swaybar sizes. As for lowering in front, I wouldn't recommend it (or at least lower so much that it isn't visible on the first look, as otherwise it will be too much. When I had 2cm difference front to rear I had the opposite effect than the expected. That is more understeer, snap oversteer during braking and lighter steering. Maybe this has to do with the change with the weight distribution which is at the very front side already at stock mode. So maybe have it standing the same or only a little at the front.
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Dodo Bizar
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2009
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:36 pm
Re: Wheel Spin
Lighter steering comes from caster going to zero when lowering the front I believe. Weight shift... that is immeasurable at those angles.
I try to get all 4 tires in good condition, but will have the newest ones always in the back, since we live in rainy countries were aqua planing is one of the most common causes of accidents.
Btw heavier cars might have more grip in the absolute sense, but a lighter car will still corner faster since the traction coefficient generally is higher when the tire is loaded lighter. So the lighter car has the relative higher grip generally, don't be mistaken. Just a note I wanted to add.
Also a note on suspension. With the double wishbone construction of Honda's having soft suspension is not even that bad. Stock suspension will still get you around the corner, but perhaps with lack of control and with a tendency to under-steer fast (which should be considered a safety feature for FWD cars around the world since many people can't control over-steer). As long as the spring and damping are in balance a stock Civic will not even be that slow when having the proper tire. Worst case scenario (and we know a lot how do or did this including myself): is changing only the spring stiffness and forgetting about damping stiffness... something that happens when just using lowering springs. Then you can get crazy around bumpy surfaces when wet. .... yeah that one has written bad interpretation all over it...
I try to get all 4 tires in good condition, but will have the newest ones always in the back, since we live in rainy countries were aqua planing is one of the most common causes of accidents.
Btw heavier cars might have more grip in the absolute sense, but a lighter car will still corner faster since the traction coefficient generally is higher when the tire is loaded lighter. So the lighter car has the relative higher grip generally, don't be mistaken. Just a note I wanted to add.
Also a note on suspension. With the double wishbone construction of Honda's having soft suspension is not even that bad. Stock suspension will still get you around the corner, but perhaps with lack of control and with a tendency to under-steer fast (which should be considered a safety feature for FWD cars around the world since many people can't control over-steer). As long as the spring and damping are in balance a stock Civic will not even be that slow when having the proper tire. Worst case scenario (and we know a lot how do or did this including myself): is changing only the spring stiffness and forgetting about damping stiffness... something that happens when just using lowering springs. Then you can get crazy around bumpy surfaces when wet. .... yeah that one has written bad interpretation all over it...
Re: Wheel Spin
LOL Dude I just woke up and jumped straight on here and when I read your post it was like some clear wisdom with some mad effects (partly due to be feeling dizzy waking up and feeling so tired)
I agree with you on the stock shocks and just lowering springs as I once had Tein S tech springs that were a mild progressive drove. I believe it was 23mm front and 15mm back and although was a pleasant drive very near to stock and handled nice around corners due to the progressive springs, my stock suspensions did bottom out and felt bad when driving and at one point raced up a road with a small-ish hill climb and noticed traffic at the other end and hit the brakes at which point I lifted off (over steered) and then spun onto a grass patch. Due to my cool headed nature I didn't panic and directed my silly ass away from harm....So i too would advise against it.
Having said that they preformed nice most times but noticed a tail happy feeling to them at spirited cornering at times but that may be too late for some.
Thing is I am daily driver and always have been and my civic will not see the sight of track. My idea would be to have a fixed setup like shock and spring kit to lower the car and improve handling as I cant see myself changing ride hight or other things, any ideas as to what is affordable and fair?
I agree with you on the stock shocks and just lowering springs as I once had Tein S tech springs that were a mild progressive drove. I believe it was 23mm front and 15mm back and although was a pleasant drive very near to stock and handled nice around corners due to the progressive springs, my stock suspensions did bottom out and felt bad when driving and at one point raced up a road with a small-ish hill climb and noticed traffic at the other end and hit the brakes at which point I lifted off (over steered) and then spun onto a grass patch. Due to my cool headed nature I didn't panic and directed my silly ass away from harm....So i too would advise against it.
Having said that they preformed nice most times but noticed a tail happy feeling to them at spirited cornering at times but that may be too late for some.
Thing is I am daily driver and always have been and my civic will not see the sight of track. My idea would be to have a fixed setup like shock and spring kit to lower the car and improve handling as I cant see myself changing ride hight or other things, any ideas as to what is affordable and fair?
Liberate our minds by any means necessary - Malcom X
Re: Wheel Spin
tyres is the main factor , when i installed my b18 it was crazy spinning in 1.2.3 gears factors were short FD short 3rd gear, i got OS LSD on it but the only thing i changed were the tyres , i instlled a pair of R888 only at front and it went perfect , but i would suggest u if u can find a set of R1R or a pair of r888 u would do fine !!!!
Up the Rev Limiter !!!!!!